Times 27364, mind your V’s and K’s

Author   glheardPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
Time taken: 14:31, and going by the times posted on the leaderboard so far, this is on the tricky side. I made a good start at it, but put in a few completely incorrect answers that I thought were plausible (wasn’t there a knight named BERTRAND somewhere?) that threw me off. There are some tricky bits of wordplay here.

I shall be turning in shortly after posting this, and will not be able to answer anything until mid-afternoon UK time, so if there’s something you disagree with, check the comments, I’m sure the hive mind will set my tired mind correct.

Away we go…

Across
1 Initially, some prisoners will get support for climbing — to be this? (6)
SPRUNG – first letters of Some, Prisoners, then RUNG(support for climbing), and a prisoner can be SPRUNG out of jail
5 Cover girl, say, crossing street, unknown character in low-key fashion (8)
MODESTLY – MODEL(cover girl) containing ST(street), then Y(unknown character)
9 Scare, being loud? Correct (8)
FRIGHTEN – F(loud), then RIGHTEN(correct as a verb)
10 Lively church faced with examination (6)
VIVACE – a musical term. CE(church) next to VIVA(examination) – I pretty confidently put in CHORAL initially
11 What gets one amazingly alive for embracing a female? (4,6)
LOVE AFFAIR –  anagram of ALIVE, FOR cotaining A, F(female)
13 Carriage may be heard in this entrance (4)
GATE – sounds lie GAIT(carriage)
14 Animal in river in Derby? (4)
HART – R(river) inside a derby HAT
15 Friend’s final letter — is message contemptuous? (10)
DISMISSIVE – last letter in frienD, then IS, MISSIVE(letter)
18 Person protecting English fort in a task involving many workers (10)
BEEKEEPING – BEING(person) containing E(English), KEEP(fort) – fun definition
20 European hero in American adventures (4)
FINN – double definition, the other being for Huckleberry FINN
21 Making a good escape, requesting cover (4)
SKIN – remove A and G(good) from ASKING(requesting)
23 Upsetting Santa, young people who have problems to deal with? (5,5)
AGONY AUNTS – anagram of SANTA,YOUNG
25 What may deaden sound in room for lecture? (6)
CARPET – double definition
26 In a sort of cell a month after the French Revolution (8)
GERMINAL – double definition, a cell and a month in the French revolutionary calendar
28 Knight’s gamble protecting queen, right? (8)
BANNERET – BET(gamble) containing Queen ANNE, R(right)
29 Drug has unusual chemical compound (6)
POTASH – POT(drug) then an anagram of HAS

Down
2 A sponger wandering around a house of prayer? (9)
PARSONAGE – anagram of A,SPONGER surrounding A
3 Oily substance that’s spicy but not soft you ultimately absorbed (7)
UNGUENT – UN-GENT(not soft, not gently) containing the last letter of yoU Edit: It appears I have mis-parsed this, as it should be PUNGENT missing P and containing U. Pity, I was rather fond of the UN-GENT
4 Kid maybe gets duck killed, producing gun (3)
GAT – the kid is a GOAT, remove the O(duck)
5 Stars and soldiers joining army of peace (5)
MENSA – MEN(soldiers) joining SA(Salvation Army). The Table constellation.
6 Underwater explorer affected by mild pain in a funny sort of way? (11)
DIVERTINGLY – DIVER(underwater explorer), TINGLY(affected by mild pain)
7 More than one brutal person keeps stealing silver (7)
SAVAGES – SAVES(keeps) containing AG(silver)
8 Landed outside tax haven zone, not against the law (5)
LICIT – LIT(landed) surrounding CI(Channel Islands, tax haven zone)
12 Sweet performer admitting fluff, finally added something for desired result (5,6)
FUDGE FACTOR –  FUDGE(sweet), ACTOR(performer) containing the last letter of flufF
16 Runner, 21, failing to finish (3)
SKI – 21 across was SKIN, remove the last letter
17 NE natives, poor city-dwellers (9)
VENETIANS – anagram of NE,NATIVES
19 Relations at home hugging doctor, most important person (7)
KINGPIN – KIN(relations), IN(at home) containing GP(doctor)
20 One of a group of painters, six, entertained by German play (7)
FAUVIST – VI(six) inside FAUST(play by Goethe)
22 Put out a note for Aussie tree-climber (5)
KOALA –  KO(put out, in boxing), A, LA(note)
24 Should do anything we’re told (5)
OUGHT – sounds like AUGHT(anything)
27 Stuff provided by salesperson (3)
REP – double definition, but a tricky one, STUFF can also mean cloth, which is the connection to REP

85 comments on “Times 27364, mind your V’s and K’s”

  1. Since George is in repose, I’ll jump in.

    I think the definition is just “oily substance”.

    The wordplay is PUNGENT (spicy), minus P (soft), and with U (you, ultimately) “absorbed”.

  2. I think 3D is PUNGENT with no P (not soft) with U in.

    I was another confident CHORAL. I almost put KINDRED in at 19D until I thought a bit harder too.

  3. I could only think of MENTA, as I didn’t know MENSA (Well, there’s the organization of soi-disant intellectuals, but ‘stars’ hardly fits that body), and didn’t think of the tambourine-players. Another CHORAL. DNK BANNERET, biffed UNGUENT and never came back to it.
    1. I’m with Kevin in guessing MENTA. LOI germinal was also a guess after a long alphabet trawl – sorta knew the French briefly used a decimal clock & calendar at some point, but not the names of the months. Banneret also NHO, went in when Lanneray was kyboshed. No choral – the opening V was already in place.
      Apart from those I didn’t find it that tricky, except (surprisingly) unravelling Venetians who were going to be Viennese or Vientianneans, and finding the Finn(s). Enjoyed the two semi-&lits 1 and 11.

      Edited at 2019-05-30 05:01 am (UTC)

  4. 40 minutes with unknowns BANNARET, FUDGE FACTOR and GERMINAL.

    When an unknown or forgotten word comes up I usually check whether it has appeared before. Today I found that FUDGE FACTOR is new and BANNARET has appeared only once, and that was in a Mephisto – which I never do.

    GERMINAL has come up a couple of times with reference to the novel by Emile Zola and the first occasion was on 19 October 2007 blogged by one D Hogg who headed his piece “Find the K”. He went on to explain that he’d initially thought the puzzle might be a pangram but it turned out that it was missing the letters V and K. Fast-forward 12 years to another very rare appearance of GERMINAL and our blog is headed “Mind your V’s and K’s” – I’m not sure why, but it’s a bit spooky, isn’t it?

    Edited at 2019-05-30 05:17 am (UTC)

  5. 21:20 … for a tricky blighter of a puzzle. Enjoyed, though, especially the penny-drop when FUDGE FACTOR came together.

    I dithered a long time over the constellation before deciding MENSA sounded more starry than MENTA, but it was a close call. Apparently its name (Latin for table) came from its being dreamed up by French astronomer Nicolas-Louis de Lacaille while working near Table Mountain in the 18th century.

    Meanwhile, full marks to jackkt for some crossword Illuminati research on hidden messages relating to the letters V and K. There’s clearly something going on …

    1. Clearly a subliminal marketing campaign by the people who make the vodka-based drinks for cool and trendy young folk, of whom there are undoubtedly very many on TfTT.
      1. I was hoping for Rupert Murdoch, the Bilderberg Group, and lizards in human form. I’ll be disappointed if it’s just alcopops
        1. Perhaps George will reveal later what was his thinking behind behind the heading. There are a few V’s and K’s in today’s grid but nothing excessive, I’d have said.
            1. my first thought on checking my answers before submitting was “there seem to be a lot of V’s and K’s in this puzzle”
      1. Indeed, though at the time I was thinking that the TA only existed in times of peace.
      1. My father was in the TA, and he was transferred to the regular army the very day the (second world) war broke out. He did get to be a Major, though ..
  6. 47 minutes, and somewhat surprised to find I’d conjured up FAUVIST, BANNERET, GERMINAL, MENSA and VIVACE correctly. At least I knew there was a French revolutionary calendar—Thermidor has come up before—and took a chance that some constellation would look like a table, knowing the Latin… I now see from Sotira’s research that the “table” name isn’t derived from its looks, though!

    FOI 4d GAT, LOI GERMINAL, soon after the FAUVIST and the fabric.

    In my time at school, the FUDGE FACTOR was sometimes known by the Greek constant “oopsilon”!

    Edited at 2019-05-30 06:36 am (UTC)

    1. Well, the Wikipedia entry (the limits of my ‘research’, I’m afraid) is a bit vague but he sort of did name it from its looks, perceiving a table ‘beneath’ the Magellanic Clouds which lie within Mensa’s borders, sort of looking a bit like Table Mountain beneath the clouds that often shroud it. Sort of. To be fair, he was a busy guy, cataloguing 10,000 stars in a 2-year stay down there, so we can forgive him some dodgy nomenclature. 10,000 in 2 years is, by my calculation, about 14 a day. Amazing how much more people could achieve when there was no TV to watch
  7. CHORAL and SKIP diverted me. GERMINAL bunged in hopefully and never got BANNERET. Not my finest (half) hour.
  8. … and never heard of the ‘fudge factor’. Obv should have been a mathematician.
  9. Enjoyed this, played to my strengths .. Banneret from Game of Thrones, knew Germinal & vivace .. the French Revolutionary Calendar is often said to have had better names for the months than the ones we actually use.

    Edited at 2019-05-30 07:48 am (UTC)

  10. <20′, but without the unknown MENSA. Only seen south of 5 degrees north apparently, and I have never ventured that far. Also ‘army of peace’ a bit weak for the Sally Army, best known for their brass bands.

    FUDGE FACTOR also unknown, along with BANNERET.

    Thanks gl and setter.

    Edited at 2019-05-30 07:50 am (UTC)

    1. Especially as their motto is ‘Blood And Fire’. Mr Grumpy
  11. Still no internet, but now on personal hotspot on iPad. 34 minutes with GERMINAL somewhat of a biff. I fell for CHORAL initially, but with a question mark as I usually fall asleep for the choir pieces. I deduced VIVACE eventually, thinking it must be a musical term the choir hadn’t heard of. I thought the tingly bit of DIVERTINGLY was a bit of a stretch, but it was divertingly diverting. I knew FAUVIST once I’d worked it out. BANNERET was constructed and looked possible. COD to the FUDGE FACTOR, Einstein’s self-confessed biggest mistake or the cosmological constant? Shouldn’t all good equations have one, to prevent scientists becoming too smug? Thank you George and setter. I actually quite liked this one.

    Edited at 2019-05-30 07:57 am (UTC)

  12. 30 mins with yoghurt, granola, etc.
    I knew Germinal from Zola, but Banneret was new to me.
    I know Rep is only a 3 letter one – but what’s that all about?
    Mostly I enjoyed the Love Affair over at the Parsonage.
    Thanks setter and G.
    1. I used to be able to buy REP by the yard. A useful basic furnishing fabric.
    2. Yup. Knew it was you even without the marmalade. Looking forward to this week’s TLS.
  14. 13:04. The wifi is on the blink here, so when I hit submit with MENTA in at 5dn I got a spinning wheel thingy as my browser struggled to connect. I then suddenly realised (having been agonising over it for at least a couple of minutes) what ‘army of peace’ meant, changed my answer to MENSA and hit submit again. The correct answer is the one that made it through to the leaderboard. So I’m not sure if I completed this puzzle correctly or not.
    Like Jerry I ninja-turtled BANNERET from Game of Thrones.
    1. What a great expression and I know exactly what you mean. Needs to go into the as-yet-not-existent TfTT lexicon.
      1. I didn’t invent it – sotira used it only last week in fact.
        1. I’m pretty sure I didn’t invent it, either, but I can’t remember who did. It’s my favourite TfTT coinage, for sure.
          1. Neither can I, and I can’t find it using google. Is it just me or is it harder to search for particular clues or discussions on this site than it used to be?
              2. Aw crap, I commented on it being the perfect expression at the time. So I’m just forgetful.
        2. Might one ask what ‘Ninja-turtle’ means? I haven’t a clue, although I’m aware of the turtles. (And I’ve seen less of ‘Game of Thrones’ than I have ‘Doctor Who’; viz. none.)
          1. I think it means using a vulgar cultural reference to get an arty-farty answer. Or something to that effect. As in using the Ninja Turtles to get the names of renaissance artists.
            1. “Vulgar” is probably a little harsh on those of us who can only identify the name of a philosopher if it’s in the Monty Python song but otherwise that’s about the long and the short of it.

              If you follow Sotira’s links above you’ll encounter its first couple of usages: a scientist deduced from a Dr. Who character and a WWII resistance movement plucked from Star Trek.

              1. I was using “vulgar” in its literal sense. I know my philosophers but I’m always grateful to Tom Lehrer for the elements. I didn’t do any chemistry in my girls’ grammar school.
                1. I remember it being invented here, and have used it a couple of times. Had never heard of Donatello as an artist until the cultural phenomenon came along.
                  1. Of course, it’s only a matter of time before NT becomes another acronym with which to puzzle the casual observer…. suggest we throw it in at every possibility. Or is it already too passe?
  15. I’m “working from home” for a bit this morning (can you tell?) making an early solve possible.

    I got off to a flyer in the NW corner and thought this was going to be an easy one but I soon encountered the tricky bits (SE especially) and eventually stopped the clock at 16:18.

    Like Isla I was trying to force the good folk of Vienna to take up residence at 17d and the rest of that corner wasn’t helped by my cleverly spotting the famous European hero CANA hidden at 20a.

    Had to assume that Mensa was a constellation, didn’t know banneret and other than “the French Revolution” obviously indicating LA reversed at the end I didn’t have much idea what was going on with 26.

  16. Was on the setter’s wavelength for once so no problems with this one – good puzzle I thought!

    I knew BANNERET so it might have been me that blogged the Mephisto that Jack mentions. A deep knowledge of FUDGE FACTOR is a vital part of actuarial and accountancy activity.

  17. I set off fairly quickly in the NW corner, but then slowed a bit. I still made reasonable progress, but the unknowns such as BANNERET, GERMINAL and FAUVIST took up some thinking time. I never did fully understand GERMINAL until coming here. I ground to a complete halt with 20a and 20d outstanding, unsure whether the hidden(so much for my intuition) at 20 was CANA or VENT, so postulated VEUVIST at 20d and Googled it. It didn’t exist, not surprisingly, but FAUVIST jumped out from the page and I then belatedly saw the parsing. The F then put me on the right track for FINN. I didn’t know MENSA was a constellation, and thought it was an iffy reference to the “intellectuals”. Nice puzzle. 43:24 with a little bit of help from my googly friend. Thanks setter and George.
  18. All done in 20 minutes, except 28a no idea and didn’t guess it right. Some fine clues I thought.
  19. CARPET if I’d biffed the word that “-A—R” suggested to me as a logical follower to “fudge”. NHO FUDGE FACTOR, which didn’t help.

    I never considered “choral”, having already solved SAVAGES before trying 10A.

    I must have met BANNERET before, but DNK the meaning.

    FOI FRIGHTEN
    LOI CARPET
    COD SPRUNG
    TIME 13:53

  20. The SE corner was a beast on this one, and I gave up somewhere in my 16th minute with no idea about GERMINAL and unsure whether 27d was REP or ESP (from salESPerson). FINN & FAUVISTS also took a long time – I’m not sure what the range of German we’re expected to know is, but since spiel is German for play, I was trying out SPIVIEL at one point.

    CHORAL would also have caught me out if I hadn’t already got the C – even so, VIVACE went in with fingers crossed.

  21. Meandered through this, quite enjoying it without ever feeling I was on the right wavelength. Glad to come here and discover I wasn’t the only person who went down the CHORAL dead end, and that I also wasn’t alone in my ignorance of the knight and the fudge.
  22. I assume others remember starting Latin with the declension of MENSA (oh table, you over there), so that went in smoothly. I’d pictured a BANNERET as some sort of pennant all these years. Like George I went chasing after a knight called Bertrand (du Guesclin or something). The top half went in fast enough but I bogged down at the KOALA/SKIN axis. I concur with Bruce and Paul’s parsing of UNGUENT. I’ve got a number of them and they’re either lavender-ish or medicinal but none are spicy. Oh, wait – I’ve just remembered the Bengay – yuk. 24.28
    1. You’ve actually got Bengay in the medicine cabinet? I only remember it from an ad in the Sunday comics, where Peter Pain, a nasty that looked rather like a pickle past its sell-by date, was vanquished by none other than.
      1. It’s still there in my husband’s cabinet, along with Tiger Balm. Apparently it’s wintergreen that’s responsible for the awful smell.
        1. nho bengay or Tiger balm .. but surgical spirit is 5% oil of wintergreen, purely as a deterrent to drinking the stuff. Are meths and surgical spirit called different names, in the US of A? Meths is known as denatured alcohol perhaps .. drinking that is bad because it is partly methyl alcohol and thus toxic
  23. 18:04 Same unknowns as others, the constellation MENSA… (yes Olivia, I chose it for the answer as it might be a Latin name for a table-like constellation, as indeed it is). BANNERET and the second meaning of GERMINAL. A good puzzle.
  24. This was a bit of a tough one.

    Failed with 5dn MENTA, 24dn OBEY and 26ac and 28ac like empty parking lots. So a DNF and my brain given a right kicking. Bar these failures it was rather enjoyable.

    FOI 27dn REP
    COD 12dn FUDGE FACTOR
    WOD 18ac BEEKEEPING

    Snitch 112!! Let’s hope tomorrow is under 100.

    Edited at 2019-05-30 01:26 pm (UTC)

    1. For Tiger Balm lovers visit the amazing Tiger Balm Gardens in Singapore! Two brothers work of a lifetime, madness!
  25. I can’t remember BANNERET in GoT. But there was a lot about “banners” and “men without banners”. So I must have missed that. Got it OK though from the ctyptic.
    1. I only read the books, and even then I skipped a fair bit .. they are quite a stretch, for someone more used to Georgette Heyer!
      1. I’d read the books before the TV series started. It seems like a lifetime ago. There’s lots of detail I’ve forgotten.
    2. I’ve only seen the TV series, but they refer a lot to ‘bannermen’. Lots of GoT terms are slight manglings of real words so it seemed perfectly possible that BANNERET could be one of those.
  26. Ended up with only ‘menta’, my last in, being incorrect, though with the same unparsed ones or new terms as many others. A DNF in 64 minutes.

    I liked KOALA, the second crossword-land appearance for our furry (but we’re told rapidly disappearing) friend in a couple of weeks.

    Thank you to setter and blogger.

  27. Rather slow today done in two sessions. I finished with SAVAGES and VIVACE (DNK) as the LOIs. Partly due to listening to the cricket at the same time…
    1. A keep is a fort, because a fort is just a fortified building. Collins, under keep (n): “a stronghold; fort; castle”
      1. A keep is part of a castle, or part of a fort. I do wonder about Collins sometimes. I’m not daft enough to allege that every dictionary is wrong, but when you have one version that includes it, and another that doesn’t, it’s usually Collins that can be relied on to be the most eccentric. And think about everyday usage. I’ve never heard a castle referred to as a ‘keep’. Ever. And I’m a historian. Mr Grumpy
  29. I took a few minutes at the end agonising over MENSA (where I couldn’t for the life of me work out what SA was standing for – doh!) and GERMINAL, which looks as though it should be more than a double def, maybe some kind of &lit. Not really on the wavelength of the setter’s style, then, though there was much to enjoy in here. Was almost lured into putting FONZ for “European hero in American adventures”… I should hand in my TLS subscription!
    1. The setter, who continues to campaign for all Times setters to be recognised for their work, says thank you to all. Izetti (PS We are allowed to reveal our identity even though the newspaper won’t!)
  30. Nearly there. Had KINDRED at 19d.
    No CARPET.
    Crossed out the unknown BANNERET!
  31. Steady solve – DNK BANNERET and guessed GERMINAL known only as it is in my wife’s bookcase. VIVACE a bit of a guess once the checkers were in.
  32. Time unknown, as I left the timer running whilst attending to something else that people were screaming was more important. Philistines. But, probably about 35 minutes.

    BANNERET was an NHO, and for some reason my brain took forever to come up with “bet” for “gamble” – why is it always the small words? MENSA was very vaguely known, and Googling it I can see why. Not only is it a southern constellation, but it also lacks any bright stars. Even worse, it seems to be made of only 4 stars in a non-rectangular arrangement. So, it’s an odd-shaped table with no legs, which I think is a plank rather than a table.

    Is it still not the weekend? It feels as if it ought to be.

  33. 34:59 a bit tricky. Dnk fudge factor. Germinal was a bit of a hit and hope at the end so I was glad when that one turned out to be correct. I guess I’m the only one who took 14ac as a straight double definition thinking there must be a river called the Hart running through the centre of Derby. Well, if setters will insist on beguiling us with these exotic, far flung locations…..Geography was never my strong point.
  34. Spent ages trying to parse Germinal. “al” must be the French revolution, right? Never heard of the revolutionary month. Rep/stuff didn’t help either.

    Edited at 2019-05-30 10:40 pm (UTC)

  35. Held up for ages in SE corner, particularly 23a where with A _ _ _ Y _ _ _T_ , ‘ angry youth’ was all that sprang to mind as having problems, though the relationship to Santa seemed obscure. The anagram was considered but rejected , doh!

  36. Thanks Izetti and glheard
    Seem to have been the opposite solving experience to the majority here with the SE corner being my start off point. Starting with OUGHT and AGONY AUNT (which I’d seen several times across different puzzles recently), was able to get to GERMINAL (again recently seen in a Polymath) and FAUVIST (vaguely remembered and FAUST a little less, but still lurking close enough to the top of mind).
    Still it took over the hour with my comeuppance coming through the middle and strangely enough the NW where I finished with PARSONAGE, FUDGE FACTOR and LOVE AFFAIR. The unheard of MENSA was near the end of the solve and had to be looked up – the Salvos came to the rescue in the word play to help. BANNERET was the other unknown but settling on ANNE as the queen relatively early helped work it out.
    Enjoyable solve.

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