Times 27831 – Greeks, heroes and Greek heroes

Author   pipkirbyPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
I began this not feeling especially sharp, but was surprised to find I had it all done and dusted in 21 minutes without any significant pauses, starting with 1a, 6a and 6d, ending with the SW corner and the only unknown-but-it-probably-exists 19d. Nothing special to note but it did send me off to Wiki to investigate the life of the Mexican cactus-eating bug. I would get out more, but Mr Hancock says not now.

Across
1 Lid turned on standard ovenware item (8)
STOCKPOT – STOCK (standard) POT = TOP (lid) reversed.
6 Everyone into wicked tune (6)
BALLAD – ALL inside BAD
9 At some stage note error also needs correction (6,2,5)
SOONER OR LATER – (NOTE ERROR ALSO)*.
10 Most striking stuff in certain wines (6)
TANNIN – Most of “TANNING” = striking.
11 Old Roman god guards unknown ship for hero (8)
ODYSSEUS – O (old) DEUS (Latin for God), insert Y (unknown) SS (ship).
13 Murderous graduate given hearing stopped by police (10)
MATRICIDAL – MA (graduate) TRIAL (hearing) insert CID.
15 Why maiden comes to make most important point? (4)
NODE – If MAIDEN has NO DE we get MAIN = most important.
16 Old Greek lacking craft to make crossing (4)
SPAN – If SPARTAN an old Greek lacks its ART (craft) we get SPAN.
18 Monarch in Balmoral perhaps, and mountainous Welsh location (10)
CAERPHILLY –  ER (monarch) in CAP (a Balmoral is a sort of cap) then HILLY for mountainous. Place best known for its cheese, which I find too crumbly and sour.
21 Advantage is seized by partners on the side (8)
EDGEWISE – EDGE (advantage) then IS between W and E (bridge partners).
22 Greek sailors dropping with effect of sun’s rays (6)
CRETAN – CREW (sailors) drops the W(ith) then TAN for effect of rays.
23 Man chasing solution, endlessly in bind, shows spirit (5,2,6)
CREME DE MENTHE – HE (man) at the end of CEMENT (bind) which has REMED(Y) (solution endlessly) inside.
25 Reportedly, fuel needed for one taking flight across seas (6)
PETREL – sounds like PETROL. Petrels are a family of seabirds which only return to land to breed.
26 Tree forced flat to sprawl among scattered pears (8)
ESPALIER – LIE (sprawl) inside (PEARS)*. A tree forced to grow in two dimensions along a wall or wires. I remember my Dad planted several along wires when I was a child and I couldn’t really see why.

Down
2 Drunk getting up thanks stateside lawyer bringing food (7)
TOSTADA – SOT reversed, TA (thanks) DA (US lawyer). Tostada is a Latin American dish, usually a fried tortilla. They have some in Tesco.
3 25 pence that was cost to include name for principal heir (5,6)
CROWN PRINCE – CROWN (old five shilling piece hence 25p) PRICE (cost) insert N for name.
4 Review harshly constrains each piece expressing praise (5)
PAEAN – PAN (review harshly) insert EA(ch). A hymn or poem of praise, Greek παιών.
5 Doubled weight in time long ago (7)
TWOFOLD – T (time) W (weight) OF OLD (long ago).
6 Corporation to fail — botched entry from board (5,4)
BELLY FLOP – BELLY = corporation, FLOP = fail. As off a diving board.
7 Survivor at Sodom among several others (3)
LOT – hidden slightly in SEVERA(L OT)HERS.
8 Out of water, area reduced to dust? (7)
AGROUND – A(area) GROUND to dust.
12 Emotional period with gospels etc in back streets (11)
SENTIMENTAL – LANES reversed (back streets) = SENAL, insert TIME (period) NT (gospels etc.).
14 Mexican insect found in black rock enclosing ravine (9)
COCHINEAL – COAL (black rock) has CHINE (ravine) inserted. Apparently you need about 150,000 females of these subtropical S. American insects to make a kilo of the cochineal or carmine dye. Must be a tedious job collecting them as they live on cacti.
17 Stalk Spanish hero on the rise after exercises (7)
PEDICLE – PE (exercises) EL CID reversed.
19 Interpreter say in Oxford college finishing early (7)
EXEGETE – EG (say) in EXETE(R) college. I got it purely from wordplay then checked it existed later.
20 Eve and Abel at odds — do not disturb (5,2)
LEAVE BE – (EVE ABEL)*.
22 Talk can be this engaging at first, appearing in person (5)
CHEAP – Put E into CHAP.
24 Musical talent demands attention (3)
EAR – double definition.

​

68 comments on “Times 27831 – Greeks, heroes and Greek heroes”

  1. I did very well, but ultimately was stuck on four interlocking clues that I really had no ability to get.

    Did not know CHINE or COCHINEAL, though understood COAL and the intended wordplay.

    Did not know EXETER, or EXEGETE, though I do know EXEGESIS so it made sense after the fact.

    Did not know CAERPHILLY or Balmoral CAP.

    Did not know ESPALIER, and was guessing SAPELIER and other variants.

    1. I actually pencilled in “sapelier” before the truth dawned. I seem to remember that the wooden casing on our gas fire c1965 was described as “sapele mahogany” so it seemed feasible.
  2. I did a bunch of biffing, like CREME DE MENTHE (Yech), which I got mainly from the enumeration and which I never went back to to parse. Also SENTIMENTAL, COCHINEAL, CROWN PRINCE (dnk the value of a crown), all parsed post-submission. I was lost at 18ac until I finally thought of ER in CAP. EAR and LOT QC material. FOI SOONER OR LATER, POI CAERPHILLY, LOI SENTIMENTAL although I’d thought of it earlier on. I liked NODE.
      1. I knew of them–wasn’t it half-crowns that Snagsby the stationer was always giving Jo or whoever in “Bleak House”?–I just never new what they were worth.
  3. 34 minutes. I had two unparsed, SPAN and CREME DE MENTHE. I was unable to work out how the latter worked and with SPAN, having biffed it, I forgot to go back and have another go at it. C de M would normally be classified as liqueur rather than spirit although I accept that ‘spirit’ is a more general term.

    PEDICLE was an unknown arrived at from wordplay and I managed to dredged up ESPALIER from somewhere at the back of my mind.

    Edited at 2020-11-25 06:36 am (UTC)

  4. Another day where I was not confident on submitting so was again pleasantly surprised not to see pink. EXEGETE was one of my doubts – I hoped Exeter was an Oxford college and although this could have given EXETEGE that sounded less likely. My other doubt was NODE. I’d convinced myself it was something to do with cricket and was trying to think how a maiden over was reached by having no “de”. So thank you to Pip for putting me straight on that one.
  5. The obvious Mexican insect was the Cucaracha, after getting the C to start. But it did suffer parsing difficulties….and had to be squashed in favour of cochineal- though I thought this might be an Indian insect from Cochin. Nice to finish with no pinks. 23:03
  6. A PETREL’s a bird on the wing
    So I’ll need to conduct a sting
    Ornithologist
    You’ll cease to exist
    I’ll make “settericidal” a thing!

    Just joking of course 😀

  7. 20:07. I felt I was making heavy weather of this.
    COCHINEAL is a bit harsh, since neither the answer nor CHINE are everyday words. I knew the insect.
    EXEGETE seemed much more likely than EXETEGE, via exegesis, a word I knew existed but wouldn’t have been able to define.
    10ac is naughty because ‘most striking’ doesn’t mean ‘most of striking’. Ximenes wouldn’t approve: I don’t believe in rigidly applying rules but in this case I agree with him.
    Interesting puzzle though, a good challenge.
    1. most = almost
      and
      most = mostly

      are in most of the usual sources, and one, other or both of those definitions seem to work as deletion indicators – for me at least.

      Edited at 2020-11-25 08:30 am (UTC)

      1. Most=almost is a colloquial and specifically North American usage only seen in quite particular contexts: ‘most everyone’, ‘most all the time’.
        I can’t find any dictionary support for most=mostly, or think of an example in which they would be substitutable.
        1. I don’t have a problem with it being an Americanism but aside from that, Collins has ‘most’ meaning ‘nearly all’ and ‘for the most part’ which in my view is perfectly sufficient for a deletion indicator. I’ve seen plenty far more dodgy ones than that accepted without question.

          ‘Most/mostly’ is in SOED as Scottish.

          1. It’s less the fact that it’s an Americanism than that it is only applicable as a synonym for mostly/nearly in very particular phrases. You can say ‘most everyone likes ice cream’ but ‘we are most there’ or ‘he scored most a century’ doesn’t make sense.
            Where ‘nearly all’ means ‘most’ it is always followed by a plural: ‘nearly all teachers’. Otherwise it needs ‘of’ in the same was as ‘most’: ‘nearly all of TANNING’.
            ‘For the most part’ in Collins is interesting: I can’t think of an example where you could substitute it for ‘most’. I’m open to suggestion!

            Edited at 2020-11-25 10:29 am (UTC)

            1. Hold on K. I’m supposed to be the only grumpy one on here.

              I agree. It’s needlessly loose. Mr Grumpy

  8. That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.
    20 mins with half a Fat Rascal, hoorah!
    No dramas as I knew Pedicle and Exegete. LOI was Node where I hadn’t a clue how to parse. I thought the ‘de’ might be needed in ‘most’ to make ‘modest’.
    For those who wince (or blench) at Creme de Menthe, my advice is to try a Stinger (cocktail) using good brandy (not a waste, I assure you) and a little of the ‘white’ (colourless) variety of CdeM.
    Thanks setter and Pip.
    1. I didn’t know that “sticky green” came in a colourless variety. Thanks Myrtilus, good idea.
    2. My complaint is that Creme de Menthe really isn’t a spirit. I’ll try the Stinger.
  9. Flying again today, PETREL- like, in sub 14′.

    Knew EXEGETE from bible study; CHINE as there are lots in the IoW, PEDICLE because EL CID was one of the defining films of my childhood; COCHINEAL because #1 daughter once released a very tiny bottle of it in the kitchen, which took many hours to clear up and was still evident years later.

    ESPALIERs save space and look nice when south-facing (in the UK), but I am too impatient a gardener to do it.

    Nho TOSTADA, but twas OK.

    Thanks Pip and setter.

    1. Yes, my grandmother used to have peaches and plums on a sunny wall. The system allows for support of the branches when they get heavy with fruit.
  10. Thanks, Pip for that, especially for NODE, TANNIN, SPAN, CREME DE MENTHE and SENTIMENTAL, none of which I could adequately parse.
  11. Pushed out to 50 minutes by my lack of knowledge of Oxford colleges, though my inability to put together either 21a EDGEWISE or COD 15a NODE for ages also didn’t help. Shame, as I’d set quite a steady pace for most of the rest of the puzzle.

    I’m currently reading the SENTIMENTAL novel Evelina, much of the last chunk of which is set around here in Hotwells in Bristol back when the Hot Well itself was fashionable, and I keep waiting for some of the Georgian vocab to pop up in a puzzle, but no luck yet.

    1. We do get Georgian vocab now and then Matt, as the Georgette Heyer fan club will let you know!
      1. I have just enjoyed The Reluctant Widow and have The Masqueraders waiting for me!
        1. Keep going, Matt. A bit of a change from Cthulhu… I recommend “The Unknown Ajax” next if you haven’t already discovered it.
    2. Thanks for the recommendation Matt. Having lived on Jacobs Wells Road as a student in the 80s and being a fan of historical novels (and Jane Austin) I shall look to reading it!
      1. I found it very readable, especially considering it’s from 1778 (about fifteen years after this house my flat forms a small part of was built, as a terrace of boarding houses specifically for visitors to the Hot Well.)

        It doesn’t have a great deal of detail of Bristol, I’m afraid—London gets a lot more of a look-in on that score—but I’m still glad I read it. My next read along these lines is going to be Chatterton Square by E.H. Young, where “Upper Radstowe” is a thinly-disguised Clifton, apparently. There’s a plaque to E.H. Young on the end house of Saville Place, so she should know what she’s talking about!

  12. 12:21. A fairly steady solve. The easier downs gave me the checkers for the long acrosses.Biffed CREME DE MENTHE and failed to parse NODE. I liked CAERPHILLY, TWOFOLD and BELLY FLOP.
  13. 50 mins as I was held up by EXEGETE (NHO) and C DE M. I agree with with Jack that it is classified as a liqueur and not a spirit. Did not parse NODE or C de M so thanks Pip for the enlightenment. COD TANNIN, not in my rosé of course!
  14. Just looked at the SNITCH and it is at exactly 100, which makes this a mean crossword! I struggled at the end due to clumsily entering the French hero Le Cid to make PEDICEL which is a word but made the seabird impossible for a long time. Several new words and no idea at all about NODE until I came here – thanks Pip.
  15. Plenty of biffing here without fully understanding several clues.

    Did not parse: TANNIN, ODYSSEUS (partially), NODE (didn’t get the maiden part), CAERPHILLY (saw the queen and the HILLY, but DNK balmoral = cap), CRETAN (missed the CREW bit), CREME DE MENTHE (no idea what was going on here).

    Parsed but DNK: ESPALIER, PEDICLE, CHINE (though did know of the COCHINEAL insect), EXEGETE

    On the whole, 23-odd minutes doesn’t seem too shabby.

  16. The Red and The Green – COCHINEAL and CREME DE MENTHE (had that recently? “no wonder they carry him around on a chair”). Is the PEDICLE the edible part of rhubarb?
  18. Happier with this than with yesterday’s, although perhaps the accompaniment of Steve Reich helped to focus my mind. Struggled with TANNIN and NODE which I eventually parsed. CAERPHILLY took a little time as I was convinced Balmoral would reference ‘castle’, having watched the Balmoral Test episode of The Crown yesterday. (Pretty sure I’d fail.)
  19. 26 minutes with LOI NODE finally parsed, and CREME DE MENTHE still a biff. COD to ESPALIER. I liked CAERPHILLY too for the cheese and the bells. I preferred this definition of the STOCK in the POT to earlier ones. Decent puzzle, Thank you Pip and setter.
  20. 21.31. I found this quite tricky especially in the SE corner. FOI ballad, LOI sentimental. NHO exegete but managed to remember the name of Exeter College, so in it went. Liked cretan and odysseus but COD for me was Caerphilly.

    Is it true the road into the town has a sign saying Please Drive Caerphilly?!

  21. of the petrel and the porpoise. In my beginning.

    Couldn’t parse node but otherwise stayed abreast of this and much enjoyed: some deft stuff. Once I saw ‘tannin’ the device seemed harmless enough. Good to see my old college making an entrance. 26’44.

    Edited at 2020-11-25 10:47 am (UTC)

  22. I was so pleased that I eventually understood TANNIN by mulling it over during typocheck, I forgot I hadn’t worked out C DE M or CROWN PRINCE, both rather worthy bits of wordplay. MODE was very neat, though I fully get that it wasn’t if you didn’t see it.
    I was saved from CUCURACHA (my spelling, and wrong to boot) by the fact that I couldn’t see the wordplay and other entries didn’t work, but really, how many other Mexican insects spring readily to mind?
    I could not have told you unaided what an ESPALIER was, other than a confusion of stairs, a shoe, an artist’s studio and some sort of restaurant.
    Many thanks Pip for being more patient and committed than me.
  23. I waltzed through this until I came to the SE corner and the Mexican insect. I eventually spotted the HILLY bit and that gave me the second C for 14d, at which point I remembered the red pigment and where it came from. ESPALIER was then dredged up leaving me with 19d. I knew neither the college or the interpreter, only that I needed to stick EG into an endless college, and having drawn a blank, looked up a list of Oxford colleges, of which only one fitted the bill, so EXEGETE it was. 30:36 with a little bit of assistance. Thanks setter and Pip.
  24. Very much on the wavelength today, doubtless helped by the classical touches. Some very devious wordplay involved, which I even worked out before submitting, if not necessarily before solving.

    Re: 1ac, the word was in my mind because just yesterday someone on Twitter posted an old menu they’d found from the (now sadly defunct) Stockpot eatery in London’s fashonable Soho, which brought back all sorts of memories from the late 80s.

  25. Convinced myself I remembered EXEGETE and wondered if anyone could have arrived at NODE without the checkers.
  26. Nope, couldn’t see NODE either but after dithering for a while concluded it wasn’t going to be “nude”. Thanks Pip. 19.51
  27. Lovely crossword and thanks Pip for parsing ‘node’ which I didn’t see at all. 25m. Could some kind soul please explain about the Snitch, and where to find it? Ihave for a long timemeant to ask about this.
    1. Top right of this page you will see a section called Links, and one of them leads to the SNITCH page, on which you will find a full explanation (helpfully, even if you are not trained in that area, it is not necessary to understand the maths to see what it does…)
      1. Thanks for the response Tim but I still can’t find it even after pressing ‘Link’ as you suggested.
  28. Had most all of this done in good time. Just left an Esy word to come up with. How hard could it be to come up with an appropriate Oxford College? Quite hard it transpired.

    Edited at 2020-11-25 12:21 pm (UTC)

  29. Didn’t parse NODE or TANNIN, so thanks to the blogger for the explanations. EDGEWISE was my LOI – once all the checkers were in place I spent some time trying to justify “adhesive” before seeing how it worked. Had to trust that a chine is a ravine, that PETREL is the spelling for the bird, and that EXEGETE is in fact a word, but otherwise this wasn’t too bad.

    FOI Ballad
    LOI Edgewise
    COD Creme de menthe

  31. About 25 mins, in two sessions.
    Quite a bit of varied GK. Not unpleasant. Easier than yesterday’s imho.
    Thanks pip.
  32. I remember the one on the Kings Road, great simple grub and very reasonably priced.
  33. I was never going to get the EXEGETE and ESPALIER crossings without help. Starting off I thought this might be a quickie, but the end took me ages. I thought GREEK for CRETAN was a bit dodgy (ask any Cretan) too.
    Curate’s egg.
    1. All Cretans are Greeks, but not all Greeks are Cretans. At least, since 1913.
  34. ….and biffed my last two, so thanks Pip for SPAN and NODE, and also for CREME DE MENTHE.

    FOI BALLAD
    LOI NODE
    COD BELLY FLOP
    TIME 16:04

  35. One of those days where you are surprised not to get a pink square. Didn’t know if Exeter was an Oxford college nor whether EXEGETE was a word. Had no idea what was going on with NODE but it seemed likely. Didn’t know PEDICLE either. But all green in the end.
  36. I generally have a favorable view of puzzles which I work through without much of a hitch, but where some clues need a bit of thought. I also generally have a favorable view of puzzles with interesting references or vocabulary. So the amassed Greeks, Greek poems, and Greek heroes, plus a couple clever clues balanced the inexcusable inclusion of Caerphilly.
  37. Red colouring used in cookery always called cochineal in m childhood.
    Chine not so unusual – Blackgang Chine on IOW eg.
  38. Again too late for meaningful comment. 22 minutes with TANNIN and SPAN unparsed. Having looked at the word properly for the first time, I have to agree that CAERPHILLY is a very odd spelling of a Welsh word. I suppose it should be a double F and a final I (Caerffili?) Ann
    1. In Welsh it is spelt as above, caer meaning fort and St Ffili being the son of St Cenydd, and the builder of the original fort. But there is also a theory, I see, that it was named for the Anglo-Norman Lord of the Marches, Philip de Braose, so maybe that’s why it’s PH not FF in English. Philip’s fort, Caer Philly. It seems odd that if the name Caerffili was Anglicised only half of it got so done, and Caer wasn’t changed to Cair or Care.
      I definitely need to get out more.
      1. Reminds me I meant to say that I have always agreed with your view of CAERPHILLY, but today I finished a block that I got from Neil’s Yard Dairy that was actually rather nice. Not crumbly at all, only slightly sour and reminiscent of French or Italian washed-rind cheeses.
      2. You and me both. I like the origin of place names. Btw, De Breos was one of the Lords of Gower. We have streets named after him in Swansea.
        My favourite place name story concerns Usk, very near to where I was brought up and known for centuries as Usk. (Which came first, Usk or Isca? They’re obviously cognates.) The Welsh language police decided the town should have a Welsh name as well. So they called it Brynbuga. It’s up there on the road signs provoking great hilarity among the almost entirely non-Welsh speaking residents. Such an unfortunate choice…
  39. DNF. Bah! A pleasant 18 minute solve where I had most of the GK and the vocab but ran agruund with a stupid typo. I shall have to tread more Caerphilly (or possibly Caerffili I see above) in future.
  40. Just under an hour, with ESPALIER my LOI after painfully deciphering the wordplay. Lots of other unknowns or perhaps little knowns, such as the bits of COCHINEAL and EXEGETE, but nothing impossibly difficult, apparently (as I did finish correctly).

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