Times Cryptic 27740

Author   jackktPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic

I had problems with this one and needed to set it aside for a short time before returning to it with renewed energy. In the end I got through it without resorting to aids, but I came pretty close to giving in at one stage.

As usual definitions are underlined in bold italics, {deletions and substitutions are in curly brackets} and [anagrinds, containment, reversal and other indicators in square ones]. I usually omit all reference to positional indicators unless there is a specific point that requires clarification.

Across
1 Expert composer making records (8)
ARCHIVES : ARCH (expert), IVES (composer – Charles, 1874-1954)
6 Defeated, have to amputate (3,3)
SAW OFF : Two meanings
9 Finally fed such a man here? (6)
DINNER :  {fe}D [finally], INNER (such a man). Collins has ‘inner man’ as 1. a person’s mind, soul, or nature, and 2.  humorous
the stomach or appetite. This was one that delayed me until all checkers were in place, and one of them (the R) was a very late arrival. I don’t quite see it, but I get the gist.
10 Doctor frees police up (8)
MOUNTIES : MO (doctor), UNTIES (frees).  ‘Up’ as ‘on a horse’.
11 A mythical giant with eyes on stalks (4)
AGOG : A, GOG (mythical giant). I remembered Gog and Magog from somewhere.
12 First law by Confucius, say: show maturity (3,4,3)
ACT ONES AGE : ACT ONE (first law), SAGE (Confucius, say)
14 One in bed appeared to have a bad back (8)
CAMELLIA : CAME (appeared) the A + ILL (bad) reversed [back]. I always want to spell this with one L for some reason.
16 One from dairy chain picked up (4)
FETA : Sounds like [picked up] “fetter” (chain). This may take the prize for one of the vaguest definitions ever. It could just as easily have clued a Jersey cow!
18 Getting back, have left bed for cat (4)
PUMA : AM UP (have left bed) reversed [getting back]
19 Without French priest, one’s paid for nothing (8)
SINECURE : SINE (without – yer actual Latin), CURÉ (French priest – yer actual French)
21 Two kids: pa and I grip one roughly (6,4)
PIGEON PAIR : Anagram [roughly] of PA I GRIP ONE. I never heard of this and it took me ages to unravel the anagrist.
22 Head in various directions (4)
NESS : N E S S (various directions). It’s a headland.
24 Give most important backing in a live case (8)
ABLATIVE : A, then VITAL (most important) reversed [backing] contained by [in] BE (live). Not the most common of cases but fortunately I remembered it from early Latin studies which also helped me with SINE, as above.
26 Fetch   strong drink (6)
DOUBLE : Two meanings. I’ve never heard of the first one, but SOED has ‘fetch’ as: the apparition or double of a (usu. living) person.
27 Like a ski-run? Work in transport in winter (6)
SLOPED : OP (work) contained  by [in] SLED (transport in winter)
28 Go back and prepare to run (4,4)
TURN TAIL : TURN (go), TAIL (back)
Down
2 One breaking step showing remorse (5)
RUING : I (one) contained by [breaking] RUNG (step)
3 Pineapple and some bananas eaten (not “ate”) in class (4,7)
HAND GRENADE : HAND (some bananas), then E{ate}N [not “ate”] contained by [in] GRADE (class). We’ve had this definition many a time so it didn’t catch me out today.
4 Corruptly closing river in the season (8)
VERNALLY : VENALLY (corruptly) containing [closing] R (river). Another long delay over this one.
5 Not quite clear paper’s to turn up, organised extra books (4-11)
SEMI-TRANSPARENT : TIMES (paper) reversed [turn up], RAN (organised), SPARE (extra) NT (books)
6 Way to include member of large family in cast (6)
SQUINT : ST (way) contains [to include] QUIN (member of large family)
7 Wilde for one with a certain appeal (3)
WIT : W (with), IT (a certain appeal). And now we’re in QC territory.
8 Soldiers in fracas on royal ship (9)
FREIGHTER : RE (soldiers) contained by [in] FIGHT (fracas), ER (royal)
13 Act confused, failing pass (4-7)
SAFE-CONDUCT : Anagram [failing] of ACT CONFUSED
15 Beauty’s first seen in a sublime ruined temple site (3,6)
ABU SIMBEL : B{eauty’s} [first] contained by [seen in] anagram [ruined} of A SUBLIME. Another unknown to me,  I said in the intro I didn’t resort to aids, but actually having worked out the likely answer here I checked it before moving on.
17 Perhaps one burgling home more loyal daughter interrupts (8)
INTRUDER : IN (home), then D (daughter) is contained by [interrupts] TRUER (more loyal)
20 On diary confirm date, at first not offering money (2,4)
IN KIND : INK IN (confirm), D{ate} [at first]. If ‘on diary’ is of particular relevance here I can’t see what it is.
23 Hot dish eaten by psalmist (5)
SALMI : Contained in [eaten by] {p}SALMI{st}. It’s a casserole or ragout of sorts. I think it came up very recently.
25 Answer very quietly; one may be on the phone (3)
APP : A (answer), PP (very quietly)

58 comments on “Times Cryptic 27740”

  1. Held up by DINNER at the end since I wasn’t convinced there wasn’t something clever I was missing (SINNER? WEINER?). Also held up by putting ABU SIMNEL and not checking the anagrist, which made ABLATIVE impossible until I fixed it. I think INK IN in a diary is that you put the appointment in in pencil and ink it in later. But I also spent some time wondering if there was a word for diary I didn’t know, like OED or AV but for a diary.
    1. For me INK-IN means confirm generically, not specifically overwrite pencil with ink. The diary is partly for the surface and partly because you mostly “ink-in” appointments, which would be recorded there. In solving I thought it a great clue, didn’t blink at the seeming superfluous diary.
  2. 1ac straight in: ACETATES (one of the gazillion composers is sure to be named Tates), and it wasn’t much better after that. Slow.
    Overall it felt a bit strange, but lots to like: INK-IN, police up, SAW OFF. DINNER with a shrug, not knowing the inner man was the stomach/appetite, so thank-you for that.
    1. Exactly the same for me – never heard of Tates, but Ives (Charles not Burl) ok.
  3. I was clearly on the wavelength for this one – or maybe just lucky.

    I was fortunate the PIGEON PAIR and ABLATIVE came easily to mind (the latter from knowing that ablative appears in Latin, which I didn’t study, but not in German, which I did). I put in DINNER thinking it might just work and DOUBLE purely on the second definition.

    I knew Gog and Magog from the Bible, where they are mentioned in the Old Testament and in Revelation. I was lucky to have misremembered them as creatures when they are actually nations. Looking them up post-submission, I see that Gog and Magog as giants come from “the last two survivors of a mythical race of giants inhabiting ancient Britain”.

  4. I was trying to work this while watching a movie, and found it needed a bit more concentration. Glad to finish, with the never-heard-of PIGEON PAIR my LOI.
  5. I followed isla’s lead and typed in ACETATES. Didn’t leave it there too long, but it was there. I also followed isla’s reading of IN KIND. Is ‘give’ necessary for ABLATIVE? Biffed HAND GRENADE, parsed post-submission; biffed SEMI-TRANSPARENT, never bothered to parse it. For once I restrained my biffing instinct and did not put in OGRE for AGOG. I first came across GOG as the title of a sci-fi B-movie in the 50s. NHO PIGEON PAIR, FETCH. I thought I remembered ABU SIMBEL as being inundated by Lake Nasser; in fact it was relocated to higher ground and saved.

    Edited at 2020-08-11 03:24 am (UTC)

  6. Forty-four minutes, with time at the end doing an alphabet trawl making sure there was no alternative to DINNER, not knowing the ‘stomach’ meaning’ for ‘INNER man’. I’d never heard of PIGEON PAIR for (looking it up now) a boy and a girl, or that strange noun sense of ‘fetch’ either.

    Not only do I want to spell CAMELLIA with one ‘L’, I also want to spell the next answer, FETA, with two ‘T’s’, which I see is given as an alternative in Chambers.

    As referred to by Kevin above, I remember ABU SIMBEL from reading about it in the “National Geographic” back in the 1960’s when it was relocated to higher ground to save it from the rising waters of the Aswan Dam. An extraordinary effort.

  7. I did two 15x15s in an hour this morning over breakfast
    This one 32 minutes. Yesterday’s ‘well you to the maths.’
    I actually heard someone with an American accent say that on CNN properly pluralised. Or were they Canadian?

    FOI 2dn HAND GRENADE

    SOI 1ac ARCHIVES so it couldn’t be Acetates (Once Queen of the Lower Nile, Have you seen Cairo’s new Museum! Chinese Dublin-based architects Heneghan Peng. Heng Hao!)

    LOI 21ac PIGEON PAIR which I knew I knew!

    COD 10ac MOUNTIES

    WOD 15dn ABU SIMBEL I well remember the brouhaha caused in late fifties. Ghana even produced a set of stamps. I think Nkrumah fancied his chances with Acetates!

  8. I found this pretty tough, finishing with SINECURE for which I very nearly had SANSCURE thinking that the without bit was French. Fortunately thinking of the rule “if it sounds wrong it probably is” helped me today.
  9. From which i learn that i can’t spell camellia….albeit that cameilia isn’t much different.
  10. 55 minutes. LOI a biffed DINNER, not expecting it to be right. PIGEON PAIR is an expression that I’ve missed out on in my life. DOUBLE was in on only the second definition. AGOG needed both crossers before I remembered. COD to ACT ONES AGE, although I’d rather not. Quite a toughie, and not always satisfying, but a good challenge. Thank you Jack and setter.

    Edited at 2020-08-11 07:43 am (UTC)

  11. I suppose you’re welcome to come here and advertise whatever your stuff is, but it mght be sensible to create a comment that isn’t just copied and pasted from (in this case) Starstruck. It’s a bit obvious.

    Edited at 2020-08-11 08:49 am (UTC)

    1. I wondered why I was having a double exposure effect when reading this. Yes, original comments preferred.
  12. 20:12. I found this a bit tricky. NHO ABU SIMBEL or PIGEON PAIR or a “fetch” meaning a DOUBLE and struggled to get several others. Well I guess I learned something today then…. and tomorrow is another day.

    Edited at 2020-08-11 07:58 am (UTC)

  14. Just ground to a halt. Found it a bit of a slog. Visited ABU SIMBEL and went inside the man-made hill. A concrete structure resembling the volcano from a James Bond film. Half expected to see terrorists abseiling down from on high.
  15. 13:40. Another that started slowly. Like yesterday I picked up speed but then slowed down at the end puzzling over the strange DINNER (such a man -> INNER?) and DOUBLE (obscure first def, second that has nothing to do with strength). A few other oddities on the way through (PIGEON PAIR, ‘one from dairy’ indicating sheep cheese, random compass readings) created a slightly weird feel to this.
  16. By which I mean several answers came out of personal experience that others here clearly don’t have.
    My two offspring were cited as a PIGEON PAIR while we live in Devon, the Gog Magog “hills” are just outside Cambridge, and there was a rather decent restaurant/dance spot called the Inner Man in my Bristol days. Mrs Z is an amputee.
    I have been to ABU SIMBEL, which had a much better impression on me that it appears to have had on sawbill. The moment you turn the corner and are confronted by the enormous effigies of Rameses and co is truly breathtaking, and the preservation of the temples intact is an extraordinary feat of engineering and preservation. Doesn’t actually mean I can spell the place, and a marzipan SIMNEL delayed progress.
    I can’t provide an experience to justify fetch/DOUBLE, which went in in hope. The whole thing stretched to nearly 24 minutes.
    1. I loved Abu Simbel and what was achieved. It was just that no one had told me that I would be able to go in through a small door and see the vast void within.

      1. Clearly I was never introduced to that small door: I saw only the ancient interior which they had painstakingly moved entire.

  17. Yes, a bit quirky but none the worse for that.. some excellent clues, such as 14ac, very slick. Nho fetch = double before. Abu Simbel otoh quite well known from its elevating act.

    Congratulations to Mohn2 on winning a prize (T2 jumbo); and one of the listener prizewinners is one JA Sever ..

  18. Took a while to finish this and left with no great feeling of satisfaction. Much of it was a fight, epitomised by the truly dreadful clue to FETA. Didn’t know DOUBLE and never heard of PIGEON PAIR. No stand out clue to relieve the monotony.
  19. A toughie. I was comfortable with the INNER bit of 9 but I still can’t see hoe “here” can clue DINNER. DINER maybe. I’m confused.

    Quite a lot of looseness or obscurity I thought.

  21. Thoroughly disliked for all kinds of reasons. Apart from that,some clever stuff, with some very smooth ‘real-life’ surfaces. Never heard of PIGEON PAIR, but the second word was obvious from def. which left an equally obvious anagram.
  22. 24:22
    Quite liked this. NHO pigeon pair, but in it went.
    Thanks jack.
  23. Slow today, agonised over DINNER, still seems a bit iffy; didn’t know PIGEON PAIR or SALMI, and don’t associate sheep’s cheese FETA with dairies (and being Scottish, am rhotic). Bah humbug. I once went to ABU SIMBEL, a four-hour taxi drive from Aswan. The driver, an Aswan native, had never been but preferred to sit in his taxi even when we offered to pay his entrance fee.

    COD: MOUNTIES ‘police up’ is good.

    Yesterday’s answer: the combination of exclamation and question marks is an interrobang.

    Today’s question: what is unusual about the fact that feta has protected designation of origin? (Not suitable for a crossword clue today!)

  24. This was really frustrating. Had all bar two finished in under 20 minutes but those two required another 8.44 before they dawned on me. Mostly due to being fixated on pro being the expert. Once I realised arch was the required word vernally followed swiftly.
    Good puzzle though . New phrase for today was pigeon pair, COD act ones age.
  25. A bit loose in parts, but interesting. Never heard of the PIGEON PAIR, as far as I know, but that meaning of “fetch” rang a faint bell, and indeed, turns out to have been on my list of words to remember for some time (though not long enough for me to get it straight off the bat).
  26. I knew “fetch” from an Edith Wharton ghost story (good one) but confidently entered “spirit” which certainly works for the clue but also made a big muddle in that corner. 20.33
  27. Past experience tells me that such messages are computer-generated so when they appear on my blog I delete them. This one slipped through when I was out buying plants for the garden but anyway it’s gone now.
  28. Another who who has spent the best part of 3 score and 10 years not knowing double/fetch, ABU SIMBEL or PIGEON PAIR. I was able to construct them, although I did confirm ABU SIMBEL existed. I resisted entering OGRE, and the arrival of HAND GRENADE vindicated my wariness. I was mostly done, apart from a few in the SW, in 30 minutes, but those few, PIGEON PAIR, ABLATIVE and finally, IN KIND, took my time to 42:51. A bit tricky, and as others have mentioned, loose in places. Thanks settter and Jack.
  29. ….”cut off” after 13 rather unenjoyable minutes. I knew it was wrong, but “saw” no alternative.

    FETA wasn’t the only thing here that was all Greek to me (I suppose it’s “dairy” if you’re in Waitrose), and NHO PIGEON PAIR.

    Like Isla3 I considered “acetates” and wrote in “ace”. I got RUING (that I’d started this puzzle) and altered it to “pro” before VERNALLY revealed the truth.

    I also confidently banged in “sans’ at 19A before altering it once “cure” suggested itself.

    If I’m totally honest, I doubt I’d have got SQUINT even with SAW OFF. MOUNTIES should have been within my range though, and it’s almost COD.

    FOI DINNER
    LOI DNF
    COD IN KIND

  30. More lento than allegro today, it’s the heat (at least here in sunny Oxford). Stuck on 1A again, I wanted ACETATES but no composer Tates known to me.
  31. Quite surprised how many missed Charles Ives at 1ac. Who can forget his “Universal Symphony” ? Although god knows I’ve tried to. As did he as it was left unfinished.
    1. I only vaguely knew the name. Of his works I know nothing. I shall trust your judgement and remain in blissful ignorance.
      1. Heard his New England Holidays symphony last June. Never again. Fortunately the second part of the concert was Beethoven’s Emperor Concerto. Talk about the agony and the ecstasy…
  32. A bit of a slog so I gave up and went back to it later. I then saw IN KIND and then took a punt on PIGEON PAIR which was an unknown to me. Finally checked out in 45 minutes. I enjoyed the misdirection for MOUNTIES which had me trying to fit reversals of MET and CID into the answer. Ann

  33. I spent far too long wondering whether SLEY might be an obscure spelling of SLEIGH, giving SLOPEY for 27ac, which a ski-run undoubtedly is, if you happen to be five. Reason, I’m glad to say, prevailed and I eventually finished in 29.39.

    Thank you to setter and blogger.

    Dave.

  34. Same experience as Jimbo and others, finished in 35 minutes with double for fetch, pigeon pair, and dinner all put in without a PDM smile. Not the best crossword ever.
  35. Plenty unparsed today after a slow start. Two answers after 10 mins including the pencilled-in PIGEON PAIR (saw PAIR in the anagrist and guessed from remaining letters).

    Then I went for a walk and several of the longer answers fell without fully parsing. HAND GRENADE (didn’t see HAND for bananas), SEMI TRANSPARENT (from two checkers, completely unparsed).

    Never formally did Latin so ABLATIVE only from memories of son’s homework. Similarly SINE similar enough to Spanish sin for without.

  37. To have a ‘Pigeon pair’ is a common expression here in SW Oz for having two children , a boy and a girl. I’d have thought it would have come from Britain with early settlers. Perhaps it died out in the UK over the last 200years but persisted here?
    LOI was DINNER, entered in hope, thinking SIGNOR, WIENER or MILNER might turn out to be correct by some arcane parsing. Double alphabet trawl took some time.
    26:12
  38. Held up mightily at the end because ‘like a ski-run’ had to be SLOPEY didn’t it? Especially with sley being an alternative spelling for sleigh. I only saw my mistake when the diary clue simply did not come with anything with a Y at the end.
    NHO PIGEON PAIR, SALMI
    COD MOUNTIES
    1. Haha! See my comment above. The more I think about it, the more SLOPEY strikes me as eminently usable.

      Davest100

      1. Yes I typed that before I read your message! I think I’m a bit older than 5 though…
  39. I’d seen Jackkt’s introduction when I was scrolling down to check the QC blog so I knew that the 15×15 was going to be challenge and I wasn’t wrong.
    It took me almost 44 minutes and I had to biff several along the way including ARCHIVES, PIGEON PAIR and ABU SIMBEL. Like some others, I DNK the ‘fetch’ meaning of ‘double’, nor did I think of the ‘fetter’ sound of the cheese.
    I did like ‘CAMELLIA’, ‘IN KIND’ and ‘ACT ONES AGE’.
    Thanks to the setter and to Jackkt – hope your plants flourish!
  40. This is certainly the most obscure puzzle I have ever finished correctly, though it took me an hour and twenty-five minutes. And I didn’t really enjoy the obscurities. For example, SINE CURE has a French priest in it, but also a Latin, not English, “without” and that is not indicated. For 1ac I started off with PRO***** and it was only when I saw HAND GRENADE (which I thought was quite good) and couldn’t think of a composer named H***S that I changed my expert and found ARCHIVES. Also NHO PIGEON PAIR, but the anagrist would yield nothing else. COD to MOUNTIES, my LOI except for DINNER, which didn’t seem to me to be a proper indication of a “here” and so went in with some doubts.

    Edited at 2020-08-11 06:04 pm (UTC)

  41. I went for an hour and then gave up on HAND, VERNALLY, et al in the upper left corner. Just a bit too tough for me to finish it off.
  42. 42:35. This was a bit of a struggle. Had fingers crossed that dinner was correct even if I couldn’t quite see it. Spent some time dabbling with sans Eli and sans pere before getting sinecure. DNK pigeon pair or fetch for double. Managed to dredge Abu Simbel up from somewhere once a few checkers were in. Loose in places but a few nice clues scattered around.
  43. Had never heard of this expression until I went and got one! When my son was born 2yrs after my daughter a relative sent congratulations ‘now you’ve got the pigeon pair’ so the phrase is still in use in England. NHO Abu Simbel so DNF, can I use the ‘obscure definition clued as an anagram’ excuse?
  44. I am surprised no-one has pointed out the a sinecure is not one who is paid for nothing but the post which pays the holder for doing nothing.

    The build up seems reasonable. Sine meaning without is used by English speakers where cure (with an accent) meaning priest is not.

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