Times Quick Cryptic No 1682 by Teazel

Author   plusjeremyPosted on Categories Quick Cryptic

Introduction

8:56. A solid puzzle that took some work to work out. I think I was mainly held up by the anagrams, which I am simply not good at without pencil and paper. Remind me again to keep a pad handy next time I solve.

Solutions

Across

1 Play wind instrument, perhaps: a dangerous weapon! (8)
BLOWPIPE – BLOW PIPE (play wind instrument, perhaps)
The thing you shoot poison darts out of. Here I think we mainly call it a ‘blowgun’.
5 Impertinence heard [from] old tribesman (4)
GAUL – GALL replaced by homophone
8 Police finally leave small wood (5)
COPSE – COPS (police) + last letter of LEAVE
9 Disrespect a fine face (7)
AFFRONT – A + F (fine) + FRONT
11 Ask intently to brew coffee (6,5)
SKINNY LATTE – ASK INTENTLY anagrammed (to brew)
13 Brief appointment — out of bed first (6)
UPDATE – DATE (appointment), UP (out of bed) first
14 Depart to stare at popular website (6)
GOOGLE – GO (depart) + OGLE (to stare at)
17 Potter’s creation safe, teacher felt finally (5,6)
PETER RABBIT – PETER (safe, as in a cashbox) + RABBI (teacher) + last letter of FELT
Beatrix Potter, that is.
20 Expert in some chaos (7)
ANARCHY – ARCH (expert) in ANY (some)
We had ARCH for ‘expert’ in the main puzzle lately and it baffled me now as then.
21 Cornered / by sea inlet? (2,3)
AT BAY – double definition-ish
22 Ring found back in allotment (4)
TOLL –  reversed and hidden in ALLOTMENT
23 Biased? Badly so, indeed (3-5)
ONE-SIDED – anagram of SO INDEED

Down

1 Jump by horse [or] antelope (4)
BUCK – double definition
2 Against work set (7)
OPPOSED – OP (work) + POSED (set)
3 Before records were made, priest and choir worked together (11)
PREHISTORIC – PRIEST + CHOIR anagrammed
4 Proposals to tour one flat country (6)
PLAINS – PLAINS (proposals) around I (one)
6 Not exactly a contest (5)
ABOUT – A + BOUT (contest)
7 Hmm […] don’t block my view (3,2,3)
LET ME SEE – double definition
10 After lunch, vegetarian may be / in high spirits (4,2,5)
FULL OF BEANS – double definition
12 Replace petitioner? Not I (8)
SUPPLANT – SUPPLIANT (petitioner) without I
15 Retire: received award; died (2,2,3)
GO TO BED – GOT (received) + O.B.E. (award) + D (died)
16 American prison is over that ravine (6)
CANYON – CAN (American prison) + YON (that)
18 Follow behind, right in the rear (5)
TRAIL – R (right) in TAIL (the rear)
19 Unnaturally colourful eddy swirling (4)
DYED – EDDY anagrammed

77 comments on “Times Quick Cryptic No 1682 by Teazel”

  1. I thought of BLOWGUN immediately, and of course immediately rejected it; it took PREHISTORIC to get me the solution. I had to think twice about GALL/GAUL; there are a couple of expert solvers who have one mistake, and I wonder if it was here. What slowed me down was SKINNY LATTE, which I doubt I’ve ever come across (I don’t drink coffee). I didn’t care for AFFRONT; an affront is an act of disrespect, and I can’t think of a context where the two words are interchangeable. As for ARCH, actually ARCH-, ODE gives ‘pre-eminent of its kind; out-and-out’, which I guess is close enough to ‘expert’, although I can’t think of a good example of ‘arch-X’ meaning ‘expert X’. 6:40.
  2. Could someone explain why it’s Definitely GAUL and not GALL?

    Personally I think the clue is coin-toss-ambiguous

    1. Because it’s ‘impertinence’ (gall) that’s heard.

      Edited at 2020-08-19 05:01 am (UTC)

      1. Duh? That’s what I’m asking?
        How do we know the wordplay is “impertinence heard from” and not “heard from tribesman”? The two seem entirely equivalent

        Lou.

    2. Well, what is heard is ‘impertinence’ i.e. gall, so the solution can’t be GALL, and it’s ‘from’ the tribesman ie GAUL that we hear impertinence. Now, ‘old tribesman heard impertinence’ would be truly ambiguous, as there’s no way of telling where ‘heard’ attaches. (I might add that in my dialect, which is irrelevant here as it’s an American dialect, Gaul and gall are not homophones.)
  3. Jack, I think you meant ‘gall’; I’m not replying to you so you can edit if necessary.
    1. Thanks for your consideration, Kevin, and I have now amended my comment. Damned predictive text!

      Actually I just had an odd experience over this as I posted my original comment from my tablet whilst still in bed and I had spotted the error immediately, however as I went to amend it I couldn’t get the Edit icon to appear when I touched the screen – the only option was ‘Collapse’. Then I posted a second comment giving my solving time and noticed I had omitted my user pic, and I was unable to edit that either. That was when I abandoned my tablet and moved to my PC where I was able to amend both as normal.

      Edited at 2020-08-19 07:11 am (UTC)

  4. It took me ages to get started. I must have read about ten clues before an answer jumped out at me so I was lucky to finish within my 10 minute target – just!

    Edited at 2020-08-19 05:02 am (UTC)

  5. Carelessness back with PETER RABBTT giving me a pink square – disappointing because of the care I took over GALL. Made rapid progress and then slowed to a crawl. It was the LHS that did for me. SUPPLANT took for ever, only coming once I finally decided TOLL must mean ‘ring’ and bunged in ANARCHY only because it fitted. I also didn’t know PETER meant ‘safe’ but that was perhaps the safest biff ever. BLOWPIPE also held me up. Five on the first pass, then all but six in 11 and finally over the line in 20m – which is the longest anyone has taken on the early leaderboard with or without a pink square. I found this really quite hard.

    EDIT: thanks to whoever it was mentioned Polygon I have now added that and Set Square, which I found while looking for Polygon, to my morning distractions.

    Edited at 2020-08-19 07:04 am (UTC)

  6. 5a is just wilfully ambiguous despite what others have said. Without banging on too much the QC is meant to encourage new solvers, not do the opposite.

    If setter wanted to be clear he should have sacrificed the surface and gone with: Impertinence heard for old tribesman. “Heard from old tribesman” can just as well mean homophone of gaul.

    Does at bay mean cornered or away. Keep the enemy away?

    COD update.

    1. Both apparently. SOED has:
      bay – The position or action of a hunted animal when, unable to flee further, it turns and defends itself at close quarters. Freq. fig. Only in at bay, to bay, at a bay, to a bay. ME.

      but also:
      hold at bay, keep at bay keep at a distance, resist, hold off. stand at bay turn against one’s assailants.

    2. I respectfully agree that 5a is ambiguous. But thanks as ever to the setter for an enjoyable workout regardless. Liked skinny latte best (though not in real life) …
    3. If setter wanted to be clear he should have sacrificed the surface and gone with: Impertinence heard for old tribesman. “Heard from old tribesman” can just as well mean homophone of gaul.

      Hear, hear. I regard it as a 50/50, though luckily I jumped the right way for a slow 12 min solve. Nothing particularly held me up, except perhaps a shortage of little grey cells, but nothing went in speedily either.

      COD – PETER RABBIT. Peter for safe is a gimme for those of us who’ve been banging our heads against crosswords for a while …

      H

  7. I see that I am in exalted company in submitting GALL, with many top solvers being ‘wrong’. Such ambiguity makes me not want to submit at all.
  8. Gall/Gaul was a fifty fifty shot, I was lucky this time, but have no way of judging whether indicators such as “heard”, “leading”, “finally” follow or precede the word described. Eg 8a “Police finally leave…”.

    Rant over.

    13:08, would have been more but with a slow finish in SW corner with ANARCHY LOI. ARCH for expert ? Does that mean an archbishop is an expert at being a bishop?

    COD FULL OF BEANS

    1. Merlin, a homophone indicator should not have ambiguity — although I have seen this be the case, I believe, when checking letters can sort things out.

      However, when it comes to taking letters from a word, or anagramming, ambiguity is the order of the day. There are countless clues where, for example, “X mixed up Y” appears, and X and Y have the same number of letters. That is considered fair.

      Also, “police finally leave” is exactly the sort of subtle clueing that goes into the best clues, where it’s not clear which word ‘finally’ applies to.

      The same could be said about the word ‘about’, which could mean ON, RE, CA, C, or indicating putting one word around another, or indicating a reversal, etc. The ambiguity is the fun.

      1. Fair enough. Misdirection is part of the game. That’s why they call ’em “puzzles”
  9. A steady but laboured solve for me, finishing in 19 mins. I must admit that GAUL was my LOI but I didn’t share the misgivings above, though I agree with Jeremy about ‘arch’. Like mendesest, I was bamboozled by peter meaning safe but, yes, it was a write-in. I liked CANYON, SUPPLANT, LET ME SEE, GOOGLE and SKINNY LATTE. Good puzzle. Thanks both. John M.

    Edited at 2020-08-19 07:50 am (UTC)

  10. … though this time instead of “talk losing T” as in recent crosswords we have “teacher gaining T”! Clearly QC setters like the rabbinate. And just as well as I’ve NHO peter as safe, so could only solve 17A by biffing after getting the rabbit.

    Blowpipe/blowgun – I’m a piper (SE England), and fascinated to hear others are gunners. Where prefers -gun?

    Otherwise i found this doable and enjoyable, not straightforward and some nice clues. Quite a lot of sets of short words – 7A, 10D, 15D, 21A – which I find easier than long single words. COD shared between two of them, 7D Let me see and 15D Go to bed.

    Just under 10 minutes in all. Many thanks to Jeremy for the blog.

    Cedric

  11. Does anyone use the LJ android app? When I use it I am often unable to load the blog in its entirety. Today I get Jeremy’s Introduction but just the heading for Solutions…

    2. Click on the”speech bubble” at the bottom with the number of replies next to it. The comments will answer below.

      1. Thanks I can load comments OK ( via speech bubble as you kindly suggest) but the main blog doesn’t load fully.. no solutions visible as the second half of the blog just isn’t there.

    3. I use it on iPhone and have the same problem. Can read the comments but not the blog

  13. I always enjoy Teazel’s puzzles but this was one of my favourites for a long time. It was tough going in places but the penny drop moments made it all worthwhile and had me snorting with amusement/appreciation on a number of occasions – LET ME SEE, GOOGLE, PETER RABBIT and BLOWPIPE to name a few. The only disappointment was that I stuck GALL in, which I put down to carelessness rather than any issues with the clue. Finished with the 1s.
    Thanks to Jeremy and Teazel
  14. A strange teaser. Thanks Teazel and Jeremy. I looked at this on my phone before going to bed and couldn’t see any of the first 10 or so clues so decided to try again with a fresh brain this morning. Perplexed with GALL, DNK ARCH and PETER but assumed the same. JCOD COFFEE LATTE and SUPPLANT. All in all, 7 hours 30 min, including sleep!
  15. I also fell into the Gaul/Gall trap – finishing (or not) in 25 mins.

    I really enjoyed this. Lots of nice clues made more interesting by the fact I was drinking a Skinny Latte in an establishment more or less opposite the Peter Rabbit museum in Bowness-on-Windermere. Coincidences eh?

    It took a while to get going though, and had to abandon the NW corner at first. Liked 10dn “Full of Beans”, 7dn “Let Me See” and 3dn “Prehistoric”

    FOI – 13ac “Update”
    LOI – 7dn “Let Me See”
    COD – 15dn “Go To Bed” (simple and neat)

    Thanks as usual.

  16. I often get this kind of clue wrong, so what determines whether the answer to 5a ‘Impertinence heard from old tribesman‘ (4) is gall or Gaul?
    Your help would be appreciated.
    1. There seems to be some disagreement on this point. In my brand of English, “heard from X” does not indicate we are hearing the word X, but rather something X might say. If there’s another way to interpret it I’m still waiting for someone to give me a sentence where the other understanding makes sense.

      “Tribesman heard” could certainly yield GALL or “tribesman heard from loudspeaker” or something like that. But “heard from tribesman” does not, to my understanding, mean that we hear the word ‘tribesman’.

  17. Finished in 11:26 with SUPPLANT only to get notice of an error.
    I went back to GALL which I still think works and altered to GAUL. This clue doesn’t quite work for me.
    David
  18. The definition is derived FROM hearing the word for old tribesman.
    1. This is the sort of mental gymnastics I think Rotter is talking about. Yes, the word ‘heard’ is in the clue. Yes, the word ‘from’ is in the clue. But clues must make sense as a sequence of instructions — it’s not just a jumble of words with a vague relation to the meaning. Several decades ago this may have been totally ambiguous, but now there is (usually) a higher standard.

      If the parsing is “impertinence / heard from (old tribesman = GALL)”, then it must mean that “heard from X” can mean to hear the word X. In my brand of English, it simply doesn’t — though perhaps in British English it does. Enlighten me, please!

  19. 14 minutes for me, and the ambiguity of 5a never even occurred to me until I came here. The first two words, ‘Impertinence heard’ seem to me to indicate that we are looking for a homophone of GALL, whereas mental gymnastics are required to interpret it the other way, although having read the blog comments, I have some sympathy for those that did so. Otherwise, an excellent puzzle as usual from Teazel, and thanks to Jeremy for the blog.
    1. Not sure any gymnastics are required.

      Scenario 1
      Wordplay: Impertinence heard

      Definition: from old tribesman.

      The connective “From” here is at best superfluous and at worst misleading.

      Scenario 2
      Wordplay: heard from old tribesman.

      Definition: Impertinence

      Clear, Can’t see any gymnastics?

      2. “I need not mean what I say, but I must say what I mean.” —Afrit

        As far as I can see, some commenters here have some misunderstanding about the rules of cryptic crosswords. To say that ‘from’ is “at worst misleading” is missing the whole point of cryptic clues: they are supposed to be misleading. In any case, ‘from’ as a linking word is completely standard: “X from Y” means that X and Y are both descriptions of the answer.

        So much for “I need not mean what I say.”.

        As for “I must say what I mean.”, I’m afraid there’s more work to do if you want to convince me that “heard from X” means “homophone of X”. If the answer was BATTLE CRY, I could accept “heard from tribesman”, but can someone give me a clear sentence where “heard from X” means that X itself is being heard? “Tribesman heard from someone”, yes, but not “heard from tribesman”, unless I’m being incredibly dense.

        Look. We can see from the solvers’ responses that this clue was confusing. And an argument can be made that it was a bit too subtle for a Quickie. But the proper response as a beginner is to learn from your mistakes how to be more discerning in your clue parsing. This isn’t the hill you want to die on.

        [Also, I should add that I’ve made mistakes like this before — countless times, I’m sure.]

        Edited at 2020-08-19 03:00 pm (UTC)

  20. Well, a technical DNF because of one letter, but in my case it wasn’t putting in the wrong GALL/GAUL, it was misspelling SUPPLANT by putting an R in instead of the first P. I did consider the correct spelling, but decided the wrong one looked better. I should have considered that “suppliant” must come from “supply”. Anyway, ignoring that I came home with 33:12 which I was reasonably happy with since this seemed on the tougher side of average. NHO of peter meaning safe, but once the right Potter came to mind, there was only one answer it was likely to be. On the subject of 5a, I might be misreading the clue, but I found it less ambiguous than some other examples. It seemed to me that the “from” was separating the ‘sounds-like gall’ from the definition of ‘old tribesman’. Liked the anagrams today, but COD to 13a. Thanks Teazel and Jeremy
  21. Defeated by GAUL/GALL and needed help with ANARCHY. Found the rest a challenge, but managed in the end.
  22. I also took an age to get started with the NW yielding only COPSE on a first pass. I moved on and was eventually left with the GAUL/GALL question and after much thought, went with GAUL. I went over my target though. 10:58. Thanks Teazel and Jeremy.
  23. I enjoyed this but found it tough. There was a lot to like, though, and I have lots of contenders for the COD trophy, including BLOWPIPE, COPSE, and LET ME SEE. I was OK with the GAUL/GALL question because it seemed to me that the homophone directive was attached to “impertinence” rather than to “tribesman”. Like most people here, I, too, have NHO peter to mean a safe, 17 across. It had to be PETER RABBIT, of course, so I’m not sure why Teazel chose such an obscure definition when something like “fade away” was available. We were going to get the answer anyway. I share some of the uneasiness with ARCH as expert but, of course, it does exist in phrases like arch-criminal. One last query – is GOOGLE a website? Isn’t it a search engine or browser?
    Thanks, Jeremy, for the blog and thanks, too, to Teazel
    1. Just looked up “peter” to mean “safe” and found that, in criminal underworld slang, a “peter-man” is a safe-cracker…. Love it!

      Looks like the origin might lie in St Peter being called “a rock” as in providing “a safe place”

  24. …but once I had, I really got my teeth into this one and, like plett11, I appreciated all the PDMs, especially GOOGLE, LET ME SEE and FULL OF BEANS.
    The anagrams were very clever and I think that SKINNY LATTE and PREHISTORIC are both worthy contenders for my COD.
    I didn’t know PETER for safe and was misled into looking for some letters of ‘chaos’ to appear in ANARCHY.
    Pleased to finish within 20 minutes. Thanks to Teazel and to Jeremy for the clear blog.
  25. … amidst all the discussion over Gall/Gaul – and I tend to agree with those who think it was clear enough, though I do understand those who read it the other way – did anyone else wonder about “Suppliant”? I think I would more often use the word “Supplicant” myself, and I’m not sure I’ve seen Suppliant used before. Is it common?

    Cedric

  26. ….”impertinence heard” before deciding it was a homophone of “gall”, so got it right. I’m glad I didn’t overthink it, because that “from” is definitely misleading, and it’s therefore a rather poor clue in an otherwise excellent puzzle. I shall smugly enjoy being 6th on the leaderboard for the time being.

    FOI GAUL
    LOI SUPPLANT (I was working with “supplicant” !)
    COD FULL OF BEANS
    TIME 4:09

  27. A little bit bitter about gall – yes, I got it wrong. Thanks go to Kevin and Jack for the explanations, although I am still with Flashman on how confusing it was! Otherwise this went pretty well, despite several phone interruptions (which I just ignored – unknown number, no answer). Apart from 5a, I thought this was a cracking puzzle, with much to enjoy. No problem with PETER for safe – we have definitely seen it in the biggie quite often and possibly here too, but I also just knew it from way back – no idea how or why tho! SUPPL(I)ANT was also a little baffling – like Cedric, I only knew supplicant.

    FOI copse
    LOI Gall (not Gaul)
    COD – two today: Prehistoric and Full of beans
    DNF in 11 minutes

    Thanks Teazel and Jeremy

  28. Way to hard for me got about 7 clues. I generally find trelawney puzzles a bit too hard for a beginner. Not much fun today
  29. Heard of ‘Peterman’ as a safe cracker, and always assumed it was Cockney slang. Never heard of PETER = safe, although it obviously follows. Enjoyed LET ME SEE and FULL OF BEANS.
    Seemed harder than my time suggests, so all in all a good challenge.
    PlayUpPompey
  30. Finished in around 15 mins but with GALL at 5ac. IMO the clue works both ways, so disappointing ambiguity there. Disappointing because in other respects this was a fine crossword with several contenders for COD. Didn’t stop to parse 12dn or 20ac as the answers were obvious with a few checkers.

    FOI – 8ac COPSE
    LOI – 5ac GALL!!
    COD – I can’t choose between FULL OF BEANS, GO TO BED and LET ME SEE – all excellent clues

  32. Sadly I didn’t get SUPPLANT as I don’t think I would know suppliant for petitioner (I was thinking of court actions) but I managed all the others so not too bad! I knew PETER from old Cockney heist films where they usually employ a peterman to blow the safe. I didn’t think at the beginning I was going to get any but then they began to come to mind. I enjoyed FULL OF BEANS!
  33. Really nicely balanced puzzle from Teazel – thank you. We completed it in an enjoyable 17 minutes – slightly delayed by the Hermes delivery man. Steed and I had a bit of a barney over gall/Gaul – as usual with these clues he was right (it’s rare so I need to give him credit 😂).

    FOI: copse
    LOI: anarchy
    COD: let me see

    Thanks to Jeremy for the blog.

  34. Wrong GALL/GAUL here too. Found this a tough puzzle at first pass but then came with a rush.

    FOI LET ME SEE, LOI GALL (sic), COD FULL OF BEANS. No time, too many interruptions

    Thanks Jeremy and Teazel.

    Templar

  35. Well this was like getting blood out of a stone. Could not get any across clue except 21 on first pass and needed all possible aids to get finished. Definitely one of the harder QCs but I did jump the right way for Gaul
  36. “I need not mean what I say, but I must say what I mean.” —Afrit

    As far as I can see, some commenters here have some misunderstanding about the rules of cryptic crosswords. To say that ‘from’ is “at worst misleading” is missing the whole point of cryptic clues: they are supposed to be misleading. In any case, ‘from’ as a linking word is completely standard: “X from Y” means that X and Y are both descriptions of the answer.

    So much for “I need not mean what I say.”.

    As for “I must say what I mean.”, I’m afraid there’s more work to do if you want to convince me that “heard from X” means “homophone of X”. If the answer was BATTLE CRY, I could accept “heard from tribesman”, but can someone give me a clear sentence where “heard from X” means that X itself is being heard? “Tribesman heard from someone”, yes, but not “heard from tribesman”, unless I’m being incredibly dense.

    Look. We can see from the solvers’ responses that this clue was confusing. And an argument can be made that it was a bit too subtle for a Quickie. But the proper response as a beginner is to learn from your mistakes how to be more discerning in your clue parsing. This isn’t the hill you want to die on.

    [Also, I should add that I’ve made mistakes like this before — countless times, I’m sure.]

    Edited at 2020-08-19 03:00 pm (UTC)

    1. Don’t agree, see my previous posts, and some very good solvers also seem to disagree with you.
      1. It’s fine to not agree. Anyone can hold any opinion they want.

        But it’s not enough to simply say, “heard from tribesman” means homophone because of the word ‘heard’. I don’t see the grammatical sense and it doesn’t pass Afrit’s test for me.

        More experienced solvers are welcome to chime in here.

        1. Of course cryptics are meant to be a little misleading, but not when there is such ambiguity in the clue, where it is 50/50 whether you get it right. And think you misunderstand the “from” issue. Usually this means get the wordplay from…, or alternatively the wordplay gives…definition, etc so here the “from” literally leads you to the wrong answer.

          Its a poor clue and could have been avoided:
          Initially Goscinny and Uderzo loved old tribesman.

          Not exactly Ximenean is it.

          1. >> And think you misunderstand the “from” issue.
            >> Usually this means get the wordplay from…, or alternatively
            >> the wordplay gives…definition, etc so here the “from”
            >> literally leads you to the wrong answer.

            You’ll have to walk me through this logic more slowly. You have just said that “X from Y” means X is the wordplay for definition Y, or X is the definition for wordplay Y. Well, in this case, X is the wordplay (impertinence heard) and Y is the definition (old tribesman).

            If you only allow X to be the definition and Y to be the wordplay, then you are still wrong in your logic, because ‘from’ would indicate that “old tribesman” is the wordplay, not “heard from old tribesman”. You can’t have it both ways.

            As for other comments, I somehow doubt that 50% of solvers got this one wrong. And you still have avoided giving me clearer examples of how “heard from X” can mean to hear the word X. I’m waiting.

            Where we agree, is that this isn’t the best way to mislead solvers. I don’t agree with you that it’s ambiguous, but I take no delight from a clue that makes me scratch my head several times and read carefully just to make sure I’m not getting the homophone the wrong way, when there are no checking letters to sort things out.

      2. I have read your old comments, but let’s go through the ones of substance:

        >> “Heard from old tribesman” can just as well mean homophone of gaul.

        Okay, so, how? As I said in my post which you disregarded, please explain to me what I’m missing. If it’s so simple, this should be an easy task. Give me another sentence or two where “heard from X” means we are hearing the word X, as opposed to something X would say. I gave alterations of the wordplay that would get you the meaning you want, like “X heard from (someone / on the radio / etc)” or “X overheard”.

        You are entitled to your opinion but you haven’t justified it — you’ve merely stated it.

        >> The connective “From” here is at best superfluous and at worst misleading.

        A clue should have no superfluous words, indeed; however, a linking word like ‘from’ in “X from Y” is not considered superfluous. As for “at worst misleading”… it appears from your other posts that you don’t have access to a dictionary, but you do know what the ‘cryptic’ in ‘cryptic crossword’ means, don’t you?

        >> Wordplay: heard from old tribesman.
        >> Definition: Impertinence
        >> Clear, Can’t see any gymnastics?

        See my above comment.

        1. Hi Jeremy can you elaborate on:
          it appears from your other posts that you don’t have access to a dictionary

          thanks.

        2. for me it comes down to a judgement on the quality of the homophone indicator, versus the to/from/providing clue indicator.

          I agree to get my answer, the homophone indicator is not good, but it works.

          To get your answer goes against the directional logic, which a reasonable person would expect in this situation. So the from was the pertinent word.

          And your comment about: “the proper response as a beginner is to learn from your mistakes how to be more discerning in your clue parsing” is laughable considering several championship solvers also went for Gall.

          Anyway I don’t appreciate your condescending tone, so thats my last comment on the matter.

          1. Saying that the homophone indicator (“heard from”) “works”, without giving a single other example of how it’s possible, and calling the matter closed is a condescension in itself. Also, the puzzle setter and the editor are human beings, and I fail to see how your excoriation of their clue setting abiliites is not also a condescension.

            I have been forceful with you, in defense of them, and I would be happy to concede the point if you could provide me with a few examples of how you’re trying to understand the clue. You’re petulantly insisting that you’re right and they are wrong, and refusing to discuss it in the slightest bit of depth.

            If several championship solvers went for GALL, I think I have yet to see them defend the answer.

          2. Re: ‘from’, I agree that “(definition) from (wordplay)” is more felicitous, but I have certainly seen it both ways; “(parts) from (whole)” being the other sort of meaning. Happy to be corrected if I’m wrong.
    2. “From as a linking word is completely standard”

      In my own small way, I’ve been compiling a “weekend” QC which johninterred issues through his Friday QC blog – hence one per month. The first two I’ve put up have been pretty well received (over 250 hits, no adverse comments).

      I wouldn’t have written this clue because I would have baulked at “from”, hence my comment. It didn’t fool me, but then I’ve had over 40 years experience of Times 15×15 puzzles.

      My question, therefore, is which words are considered “standard linking words” ?

      I agree that the whole point of a good cryptic clue is to mislead – but fairly. Personally I thought this clue was a bear trap into which a rather angry bear had already fallen ! I certainly don’t want to fall out with you, especially since I find your blogs helpful and entertaining, but if you could enlighten me more fully I would very much appreciate it. Thanks.

  37. I’ve enjoyed the correspondence (bickering?) about Gaul/Gall and was pleased to find I got it right.

    There’s a delightful to-and-fro between Alice and the Mad Hatter (Lewis Carroll) on “say what you mean/mean what you say” which is a bit too long to quote here but worth looking up. The Dormouse and the March Hare get their say in too …

    Not easy at all today though – I’d never have got PETER in a month of Sundays.

    Thanks all.

    Diana

    1. Fair enough, though how many got it wrong? There’s certainly many of correctly solved puzzles on the leaderboard.

      But in principle, I don’t disagree. I’m not a huge fan of clues which confuse in this way.

  39. I thought it a perfect QC and find the argument Gaul, Gall pernickety. The sense must suggest the former. The skies do not fall if one chose the latter!
  40. If I were a betting man I’d say this:
    Impertinence heard = 80% likely (as they are 2 words next to each other and simple)
    Heard from old tribesman = 20% likely (as it is a lot more convoluted)
    I wouldn’t be surprised if the results spread out that way too…!

    Barry.

    1. I thought the same, but after all the Gallic invective, thought it better not to mention it!

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